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Diary
By Christopher Robin was Murdered (Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 06:51:49 PM EST) (all tags)
Confessions of a quantified sinner. Putting God's rules to a vote. Need serious improvement in the false witness and coveting departments. Depends what you mean by "read" and "book."


Sunday School

    Today the students and I concluded a two-week theological experiment of sorts. Inspired by the recently released Year of Living Biblically (from which weve read in class), we've been trying to quantify just how often all the members of the class, including the teacher (that's me), broke the Ten Commandments. We wanted to find out which of the Big Ten was the hardest to keep.

    For the past two weeks, each of us kept a couple small scorecards with us.  Each scorecard fit in the back pocket of a regular pair of jeans. It was printed on slightly gray cardstock. It was a simple spreadsheet grid with the number of the commandment running down the y-axis. Across the top, we had the dates for each day of the week: one card covered the week of the first through the seventh and the other covered the eighth through the fourteenth. The idea was that we'd fill in the grid number of violations we made each day. The commandments would just be indicated by number so, should somebody find it, it wouldn't be readily apparent what we were doing. It was a condition of doing the experiment that nobody could be asked to provide details about an infraction and that nobody would put their name on any of the recording documents.

    It was also necessary, before we began, to lay down some definitions about what just constituted an infraction. There was some confusion about what was, exactly, a "graven image." From the hissy fit Moses threw, we knew a golden calf statue was a bad idea; but we were worried that it was one of slippery concepts that wasn't calf specific and might be just the sort of thing someone violated without intending to. A quick check of the dictionary wasn't completely useful: graven simply means sculpted, but there's a second definition specific to the entire phrase "graven image" that requires one worship said sculpture. Influenced by the film Dogma, there was some concern about what constituted worshipping. Given the theological hairsplitting this was leading to, we decided that, in order to actually violate this commandment, you'd have to sculpt an image and believe that it represented a god of some sort. Seeing the Golden Arches and craving a Big Mac wouldn't count as a violation.
    Not that we thought it would come up, but we decided to count any killing as a violation of the injunction against killing people. We wouldn't distinguish between garden variety homicides, killing in self-defense, and people offed in a "just" war. We also decided that this referred to direction action. You yourself had to kill a dude. Being an American at a time when America was at war didn't make you automatically a violator of the rule.
    Bearing false witness was another sticky wicket. Some will tell you that this specifically refers providing false information in a legal setting and that the injunctions against generic lying appear elsewhere in the Bible. We decided, after much deliberation, that we'd take the commandment to be a generic rule about lying in or out of a legal context. I could not, however, convince my students that omissions constituted lying. The commandment, as far as my students were concerned, demanded you tell the truth and nothing but the truth, but it wasn't necessarily required that you tell the whole truth. I was outvoted. I did point out that this might put them in trouble with regards to honoring their mothers and fathers. They said that they worry about that when they got in that situation.
    Finally, oddly, coveting caused two problems. The first was easily rectified: several students were under the impression that the word "covet" was just a synonym for the word "steal" and they weren't sure why there were two commandments against theft. The second was trickier: Is it cool to covet something that your neighbor doesn't own? For example, let's say your schoolie (the students decided to consider all humanity as their neighbors – a generous gesture that makes the commandments a lot hard to follow than if you considered them as applicable to only the dudes who live next to you) has a hot boy or girlfriend. The situation in "Jesse's Girl" is clearly a no-no. But will you be breaking the commandment if you decide that you merely want something like what Jesse and his girl have. You don't want Jesse's girl so much as you want what Jesse and his girl have while, at the same time, you have no desire that Jesse and his girl should stop having what they have. We debated this one for some time and came to the conclusion that you have to specifically covet the neighbor's thing to violate this. Coveting something that is like your neighbor's thing wouldn't count. Personally, I thought this was a cop out and simply further proof that Calvinist aren't raising their kids like they used to. But, again, I was outvoted.

    With the ground rules set, we spent two weeks gathering data.

    I did great on certain commandments. I didn't hold any other gods before God (sorry Thor, what have you done for my lately). I managed to not carve any statues that I then worshipped as a god. I didn't kill anybody through any direct actions of my own. There's a big fat blank in the adultery row. There was suitably respectful behavior towards my 'rents. No stealing.
    Still, I racked up quite a few black marks. Under the new freelance regime, keeping the Sabbath holy is a luxury I just can't afford. (See how helpful that phrase is?) We really could only break that rule once in the timeframe of the experiment and I did break it.
    I racked up quite a few of God's name in vain violations. It would have been worse if it weren't for my tendency to leapfrog straight to the more profane language and the influence of W.C. Fields on my father. In the first case, I'm more likely to drop the f-bomb than ask God to metaphorically damn something. In the second, my father was in the habit of using W.C. Fields's famous evasions of the Commandment #3 around his children. Consequently, his children use those evasions the way others use the Lord's name vainly. Without really intending it as an evasion, I'll use the phrase "Godfrey Daniel."
    The two big killers for we were lying and coveting. Dude, I'm like a champion of lying and coveting. If there was a lying and coveting Olympics, I 'd be captain of the American Lying and Coveting Team. Mostly the lies had were of the little-white grade fabrications. They were the sort of thing you say to get out of a social obligation without hurting anybody's feelings, stuff like that. The coveting mainly has to do with real estate.

    Apparently, I'm far from alone. Coveting and lying were the biggies on the student tallies as well. They fared considerably worse in the honoring the parents department, suggesting that parents are simply easier to honor when you don't actually have to deal with them. Musical downloads killed their theft stats.
    I'm happy to report the class managed not to kill anybody or commit any adultery. We also avoid putting any other gods before God and we're 100% graven image free.
    Unlike their sinful teacher, the students successfully managed to avoid labor on the Sabbath. There was a hint of the suggestion that working on the weekend is not only sinful, but dumb. There is, I should point out, no injunction to honor your Sunday school teacher.

The Internets

    Speaking of "lying" – so, out of curiosity, I've been tracking down dudes I run across on Shelfari to their home web pages. Mostly blogs. I've found that readers on Shelfari tend to "double up" coverage of their reading habits. They'll post books that they've read on Shelfari and also review these books on their blogs and vanity pages. Weirdly, the data presented in both places rarely matches up. And I'm not talking about slight differences in the wording of reviews. There are often fundamental differences about whether or not a book was completely read or what format (book versus audio DVD, for example) was consumed don't match up. I would ascribe this to error – perhaps they were not aware you could indicate audio versions – except that many of these cats and kittens do indicate what format they consumed.

    Most often, this is a sort of "sin of omission." Somebody on their blog will indicate that they didn't bother reading all the way through a book, but on Shelfari it will appear on the "shelf" along with books he or she has read. To be fair, it's not clear that a book on your "shelf" must be read. That assumption is supported by the fact that books on shared shelves are labeled "books we've read." Further, there are areas for books one intends to read and books one is currently reading. You could, I guess, argue that placing an unfinished book on your "shelf" doesn't constitute a lie and there is no expectation that you've completely read said book, but this seems somewhat disingenuous given that the site itself clearly supposes just that.

    As for the format thing, I think this is the strangest bit at all. Without getting to abstract, I understand that the definition of a "book" is somewhat malleable. For example, I find it weird that some folks but comic books up on their Shelfari shelves. They don't indicate their month magazine reading, but, for some reason, comics are different. But this, I feel, is an arguable point. It is reading material and you read it, so if you want to count it, that's your bee's wax. But audio books strike me as a fundamentally different beast. They are, by definition, not reading material. You listened to it, not read it. Personally, I don't think it should appear in a set of "read" books. Though, this isn't even the point. The real question is, why would you say in one place that you listened to book and then, in another, say you read it – and, this is the odd thing, give readers easy access to both places? (I'm thinking of a kitten who had all of Proust on her shelf, but blogged about listening her way through Search. What odd is that, for other books, books that seem to me to be of less intellectual heft, she's got no problem indicating the audio.) I don't get why you'd confuse the issue and give the impression of being full of bullshit.

    I'm over thinking this.  I blame being home so much. It's making me an obsessive shut-in.

Song title: "We're All in This Together" by Old Crow Medicine Show

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We're All in This Together | 74 comments (74 topical, 0 hidden) | Trackback
No adultery? by ambrosen (4.00 / 1) #1 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:05:59 PM EST
I'm guessing you didn't use Christ's definition of adultery in that case.



To be fair . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #3 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:41:29 PM EST
Neither did the commandments.

[ Parent ]

Well lucky for you by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #2 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 07:42:08 PM EST
that Jesus has a policy of forgiving sinners. I guess that puts Christians on some sort of "fast track" program to Heaven.



If he's really that forgiving . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #4 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:43:07 PM EST
And not believing in him is supposedly a sin, then its the non-Christians who should be on the real fast track, right?

[ Parent ]

Does it really matter to them by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #7 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:02:21 PM EST
if they enter Heaven or not, given that they don't really believe in it anyway or Jesus for that matter?

I happen to think that if a Non-Christian is good, Jesus will forgive them and they can enter Heaven after spending time in Purgatory like any other sinner would that needs sins forgiven but didn't confess to Jesus about them yet.

[ Parent ]

I think you all might be interpret scripture by dmg (2.00 / 0) #38 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:31:27 PM EST
Just a bit too literally...

Hope this helps.

Have a nice day.
--
We are witnessing the last few years of the Monarchy. Enjoy!
[ Parent ]

God's name in vain by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #5 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 08:53:42 PM EST
I wouldn't think the f-bomb would count as taking God's name in vain.


But I'm mostly curious about the whole Sabbath thing...I presume you have to actually go to church, not just use it for slacking.  Also, what constitutes work?  Mowing the lawn?  Going to the gym?  Rebuilding a hard drive? Finally killing that damn boss that fires the rockets and can only be hit from behind?


The bearing false witness one has always struck me as the most problematic what with the stereotypical "would you lie to the gestapo officer about Anne Frank's whereabouts" strawman.
----
ウセーバラケダ


I wouldn't think so either. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #6 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 09:01:40 PM EST
I thought my name-in-vain count was relatively low because I tend to skip over the light blasphemy and get straight into obscenity.

I couldn't split hairs about it. I actually did work - as in the labor I actually gather wages for doing - on Sunday. So no matter how fine tuned you get the definition, I was already in violation in the simplest sort of way.

Bearing false witness didn't bother the kids as much as the coveting thing did in so much as you could covet and not actually do anything about and still be in violation. They felt very strongly that rules about mental states that didn't necessarily lead to action were dubious. They couldn't see why you should have to take the hit for just thinking about something.

[ Parent ]

Debatable by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #8 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:05:06 PM EST
Since nobody knows God's true name, how can anyone take it in vain?

God is like a pronoun, Lord is a title, Jesus is a nickname, and son on, so in all honesty nobody really knows what God's true name is, apparently.

Technically one cannot take God's true name in vain, if they don't know what it is really.

[ Parent ]

Splitting Hairs [nt] by debacle (2.00 / 0) #25 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 02:35:29 PM EST


"I'm very responsive to certain stimuli, and pain is pretty much at the top of that list." - BadDoggie

[ Parent ]

I think we have to assume somebody knows it . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #35 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:15:00 PM EST
Or there wouldn't be the rule.

[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #9 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:08:45 PM EST

This comment has been deleted by Troll Hard



[ Parent ]

Oh my! by ucblockhead (2.00 / 0) #10 Sun Oct 14, 2007 at 10:52:26 PM EST
That praise is just too much!  I'm very honored, though a bit embarrassed.  Can you delete it before it goes to my head?
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ウセーバラケダ
[ Parent ]

Deleted by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #16 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:23:38 AM EST
though I am still one of your biggest fans.

[ Parent ]

sabbath by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #12 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 03:28:52 AM EST
All my mother was allowed to do on Sabbath was milk the cows (this was a special exception to work as the cows have a bit of trouble knowing it is Sabbath and not producing milk), attend service and stay inside all day reading the bible. That's strict Methodism.

In .ch, it appears to be don't do noisy housework (mowing lawn bad) and you can only go shopping in a trainstation.

[ Parent ]

funny how Methodism varies by wumpus (2.00 / 0) #13 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:16:19 AM EST
Missing golf would probably be the only thing frowned on the sabath amoung the Methodists I was raised with. We certainly wouldn't consider changing the martinis in any way.

Wumpus

[ Parent ]

north of england by Merekat (2.00 / 0) #14 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 07:20:32 AM EST
Not happy unless they're feckin' miserable.

[ Parent ]

so, by garlic (2.00 / 0) #15 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:18:10 AM EST
which day did you count as the sabbath day? I'm always struck that it seems like Christians' did the opposite of remembering the sabbath day, since we worship on sunday instead of saturday.

[ Parent ]

It all depends on what calendar you use by Troll Hard (2.00 / 0) #22 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:44:07 PM EST
and what day is the start of the week.

[ Parent ]

We used the plain ol' traditional Sunday. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #24 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:57:44 PM EST
I guess we could have brought that up for vote, but nobody seemed to have any problem with it.

[ Parent ]

According to The New Republic by wiredog (2.00 / 0) #17 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 08:48:12 AM EST
"Fuck you" has replaced "God Damn". 

Earth First!
(We can strip mine the rest later.)

[ Parent ]

Shelfari by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #11 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:49:59 AM EST
AFAIK The Shelf is supposed to include books that are on your "reading list" but you haven't read yet. It didn't occur to me it was only supposed to be books of a certain format that you haven't read yet.

Regarding audiobooks: I'm currently going though Baudolino by Umberto Eco. I listen to it in audiobook format on the way to work, but I also have a paper copy from the library which I read bits from at home. How does that fit in to your classification?
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell


The shelf. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #23 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 01:55:43 PM EST
Before we get too into this, let me re-emphasize that I think my entire obsession with the proper role off the Shelfari virtual shelf in the reading community is completely silly on my part.

You might be right on the first point - there seems to be no accepted usage for what's on one's shelf. I simply explained why I thought that there was an implicit assumption that they were completed books. Still, I think I said that one could make an argument that my very first principle was wrong here, making the rest of the argument moot.

As for the Eco book, I assume you could show both formats on your Shelf. Assuming both formats should be available for display (and they should be, since I'm assuming both hardcopy and audio versions are available from Amazon).

Though I do think that, say, if you finished the audio book and never bothered to read the hardcopy, but then posted the hardcopy version as if you had read it, then you are kind of misrepresenting the case. (To be honest, I kinda don't get putting taped stuff up at all. You don't read it anymore than you smell a photo or taste a song. It seems to me to be a fundamentally different beast. If you saw a very faithful film adaptation of a book, would you count it?)

One, ultimately, could ask: "CRwM, why do you give a shit what other people have on their freakin' shelves?" And I'd be forced to answer, "I have no good reason at all. I should probably get out more."

[ Parent ]

I don't really see by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #27 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 02:38:39 PM EST
Why audiobooks are different to paper books. It's exactly the same words in the same order. It's like saying it's a different book if you read it on the beach than if you read it on the train.

Reading is faster than talking though, so an audiobook does take longer. But people can read at different speeds, and if two people read Baudolino at different speeds it doesn't mean they've read different books.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

reading a play by alprazolam (2.00 / 0) #30 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 03:34:10 PM EST
is the same as watching it performed then? an audiobook is performance art. reading a subtitled foreign movie is closer to reading a book than listening to an audiobook. there's no reading involved! the reading is the best part. the words go in through the eyes and directly soothe the brain. an audiobook is as much a book as a toaster is.

[ Parent ]

No by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #31 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 03:42:40 PM EST
A play isn't just a sequence of words and punctuation in a certain order. The reason it's different to a book is that other elements, such as performance, facial expression, movement are involved.

If you read a play instead of seeing it performed, you lose the additional information of facial expression, precise movement, costume and set.

However the audiobook is read, assuming it's audible, every single word is delivered to the brain of the recipient in the right order. He receives all the data with no losses.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

there's extra data though -- by garlic (4.00 / 1) #32 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 03:59:22 PM EST
for instance, the harry potter narrator does voices.

I think the complaint is probably some sort of elitism. 'reading is better'.

[ Parent ]

Not so much. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #36 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:22:09 PM EST
I was more wondering why somebody would make the distinction clear in one venue but then unclear elsewhere.

I've never found that reading made one a better or more interesting person, so any arguments for its importance relative to other medias don't get much traction with me.

[ Parent ]

reading _is_ better by alprazolam (2.00 / 0) #42 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:50:56 PM EST
reading is good. listening to people sucks.

and "every single word..." well i've never listened to an audiobook, but i have trouble believing that. i'm sure you miss plenty.

also am i supposed to put every book i've every read on this shelf, or just the ones i've read this year, or just ones that make me look smart?

[ Parent ]

It is a social networking site . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (4.00 / 1) #43 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:00:07 PM EST
So find the handful of titles that won't make you look like an anti-social, shut-in, serial killer type and post those.

[ Parent ]

Maybe by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #46 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:23:27 PM EST
I think for some people reading is a tough effort, so they somehow regard audiobooks as a soft option. I find it easier to read paper books though: I only go for audiobooks since I can't read while walking to work.

Either way, I don't think it makes any difference as to which is easier. You should just take the easiest option that gets you all the words.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

The amount of data doesn't matter to me. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #34 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:13:43 PM EST
If you say you've read Huckleberry Finn, I'd consider you as having read it whether you read the straight no-chaser Signet Classic Mass Market Paperback or the fancy-schmancy illustrated and annotated super-version.

Mainly because of the verb - you read it. You didn't listen to or eat it or wear it or smell it.

I feel that when you change how something is consumed so significantly that you have to alter the verb, you are altering the experience in a way that reading the same book in differences places doesn't ('cause you're still reading it).

This isn't to say that one of the experiences is inferior to the other. You'd have a hard time proving that. I'm just saying that there's a significant difference between data you read and data you hear.

[ Parent ]

"Altering the experience" by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #44 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:13:18 PM EST
What does that mean though? As I said, if you read a book in one session on a beach on holiday, you're having a different experience to reading it in many sessions on a crowded subway train on the way to work. They both still count as reading the same book though, because you're getting the same words in the same order.

I think the language is a red herring. If you look up the etymology of read:

O.E. rædan (W.Saxon), redan (Anglian) "to explain, read, rule, advise" (related to ræd, red "advice"), from P.Gmc. *raedanan (cf. O.N. raða, O.Fris. reda, Du. raden, O.H.G. ratan, Ger. raten "to advise, counsel, guess"), from PIE base *rei- "to reason, count" (cf. Skt. radh- "to succeed, accomplish," Gk. arithmos "number amount," O.C.S. raditi "to take thought, attend to," O.Ir. im-radim "to deliberate, consider"). Connected to riddle via notion of "interpret." Words from this root in most modern Gmc. languages still mean "counsel, advise." Transference to "understand the meaning of written symbols" is unique to O.E. and (perhaps under Eng. influence) O.N. raða. Most languages use a word rooted in the idea of "gather up" as their word for "read" (cf. Fr. lire, from L. legere).
It just seems to be a happenstance of modern English that use different words for reading a book and listening to an audiobook. In most languages we would gather up the information in the same way for both, and in the original Saxon we'd be advised either by a paper book or audiobook.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

Same words, same order. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #48 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 06:05:29 PM EST
I'd say that "same words, same order" doesn't make a difference. I don't know as I'd distinguish between a person who read, for example, the stories in a short story collection out of order versus somebody who read them front to back.

I'm also unsure what the etymology of the word "read" has to do with anything. I'm discussing a break in the modern expectations of the word. It roots - while interesting, admittedly - don't seem to come into play.

I'm arguing that when people see the cover of the print version of the book on somebody's shelf, they assume - especially since it is no great shakes to place the audio version on your shelf - that you've read the book in the visual sense.

Why would you be against indicating on a venue like Shelfari which books you had specifically read and which you had specifically listened too? Given that you don't see that one is worse or better than the other, why the deliberate misinformation?

[ Parent ]

Missing cultural reference by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #51 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 02:11:02 AM EST
Andre Previn on Morecombe and Wise (9 minutes in).

Now, the point of the etymology was that you seemed to be arguing that the fact that we use the different words read and listen for books and audiobooks means that they must be different concepts. However, that seems to be just an accident of modern English, not some deep Chomskyish hardwiring or anything

Now suppose someone read Huckleberry Finn once and on Shelfari happened to select the Signet Classic Mass Market Paperback instead of the Penguin Books version he actually read. Would you complain then about "why the deliberate misinformation" about which version he had "specifically read"? A book is a sequence of words: it doesn't make any significant difference whether it's hardback, paperback, audiobook, e-book or whatever as long as the sequence is the same.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

A book isn't necessarily a set sequence of words. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #53 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 07:49:33 AM EST
Most books assume a sequence but, as in the example I gave, many, by design, allow the reader some leeway to move through the sequence with some degree of freedom.

The are other examples: When do you read the endnotes in Infinite Jest, how do you tackle the sidebars and word artifacts in House of Leaves, when do you read the footnotes in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell? Have you read a poetry collection if you've read all the poems, but didn't read them from front to back? Have you read a Choose Your Own Adventure if you did an adventure, but didn't read all all the pages you didn't choose? This list can go on, the number of works where this freedom is built in is certainly in the minority, but it isn't insignificant.

(As an aside, I've actually heard the audio version of Strange and they are inserted at the end of the sentences that are footnoted. The essentially break the narrative and read aloud the note.)

One of the significant differences between the audiobook and the standard hardcopy is the imposition of a sequence hard and fast sequence. Most importantly, it's a red herring. If we want to split hairs in a fruitless effort to find a rigorous definition of what reading is, one could point out that the processes of reading and listening, on a neurological level, are very different - so no matter the data, you aren't doing the same thing.

This is all past the point I was making, which is about the expectations people have when you tell them you read something.

You frequently listened to canned lectures, right? Would you tell somebody that you took that professors course or attended one of his lectures? Even if the lecture he gives is the same, you wouldn't. And it isn't because of the data received. He might give the exact same lecture every class in the exact same manner. It's because when you tell people you took a course or attended a lecture, you set up certain expectations. In this case, they'd be expectations you didn't fulfill.

I'm suggesting the audiobook, for most folks, i the same. It doesn't fulfill their expectations. I'm also implying that this lady knows that, so she tailors the representation of what exactly she did to exploit these assumptions, leaving people to erroneously assume something that is not true.

To answer the question about different editions, I think most people would accept that, in you example, the books were the same and that you could be reasonably said to have read the same book.

[ Parent ]

Again, that all comes back to information by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #54 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 01:49:50 PM EST
Any professor worth attending a lecture by, will take questions at the end, and will tailor the lecture to the level of knowledge of a particular audience. If you listen to a recorded lecture that's part of a degree course, you do not receive the extra information.

If you omit the footnotes in a book, then you have missed out on that information.

If you take a different path through a choose your own adventure book, then you have received different information.

Those are all boundary conditions. But in each case, where the boundary lies just depends on how much of the word-sequence is preserved.

one could point out that the processes of reading and listening, on a neurological level, are very different - so no matter the data, you aren't doing the same thing.
Do you have a cite for that? The brain activity is obviously going to be somewhat different for sight and sound, but that doesn't necessarily imply that there is a difference to the meaning.

Now, I have a fairly clear definition of what a particular book is: a sequence of words. You say that a book is "not necessarily a set sequence of words" So, what is your definition of a book? It should satisfy all your attributes: that it's the same item if read in different paper editions, on a beach or on a train, in short pieces or a single sitting; but is a different item when read on paper than when listened to on audio.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

My definition of a book is this: by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #55 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 02:40:21 PM EST
An item that a sufficient number of language users would identify as a book if asked. I propose that a majority of English speakers would identify different same-language editions of the same title as a book. I submit that a majority of them would not distinguish between the item due to reading conditions - though they would allow that some conditions were more conducive to reading and understanding the item. I submit that it does not depend on words (a picture book), nor does it always depend on a set sequence (see previous examples), nor does it demand a sense of physical unity (most wouldn't consider a book unfinished if you told them you skipped the intro or read a book that was missing its cover).

I further submit that a majority of the speakers of a language would no longer recognize the item as such the moment there is a performative aspect added (a dramatic reading, a play or film adaptation).

I would say to that most language users would recognize that it needs to have more than a single "page" of info - to distinguish it from posters and fliers. Most require a spine, even if it is only the crease of a chapbook.

If we took you definition then the following are all books:

  • Song lyrics
  • Any sting of graffiti more than a single word long
  • Warning labels
  • Movie subtitles
  • Cereal boxes
  • Any painting or poster with more than one word on it
  • Fortune cookie fortunes
As for the brain processing info:

"Recent studies using a powerful brain imaging technique called PET, positron emission tomography, support the idea of convergence zones, said Dr. Steven Petersen of Washington University of in St. Louis. Some brain lesions, locatable with PET images, prevent people from reading while other language abilties remain intact, he said. Thus a person can speak the word cup, read the letters 'c' and 'u' and 'p', trace the word cup and if the word is dictated, he or she can write it, Dr. Petersen said. But a little while later, they cannot read it, he said, even in their own handwriting. The area damaged is a zone for higher order processing of visual word-like forms, he said, possibly a convergence zone for reading."

From the Times, "Brain Yields New Clues On Its Organization For Language," 9/10/91

We can get more, but my point is that the visual recognition of the written word is different that verbal recognition of the spoken - and that one can get destroyed while the other still works is evidence that we're not using the same structures or process.

Though this is all away from my original point - why not indicate the edition?

[ Parent ]

That doesn't make sense by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #56 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 03:17:46 PM EST
You're appealing to the idea of a book as something that "a majority of English speakers" would identify as a book. But the whole reason you started this discussion was that you noticed that on Shelfari people don't differentiate audiobooks from paper books. Therefore, common usage disagrees with you on that.

(Let's leave aside the questions of why a book should be something that only English speakers can recognize, and why that's not really a definition anyway).

The brain damage thing doesn't prove anything. All sensory data has to be processed by the brain. Injure one part of the brain and you damage reading, injure another part and it damages hearing... but that does not indicate that the comprehension of the words once processed is in any way different.

Regarding the question of very short books, it would be easy enough to qualify my definition by number of words, a lack of need for extraneous non-word information, and you could have the usual boundary arguments around it. But the topic in question is whether an audiobook is the same as a paper book, and for that we only need to know that the essence of a book is just its word-sequence.

It's that which renders the edition unimportant. The main point of Shelfari is to say that you've experienced a particular word-sequence.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

We're spinning our wheels here. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #57 Tue Oct 16, 2007 at 05:11:08 PM EST
Look, I think we've gone so far afield that we're talking about two different things.

You're, I think, talking about what makes Eco's work  Eco's work regardless of the format. Book = artistic work.

I'm talking about a general assumption in the population that when you say "read a book" they expect you to be scanning words in a bound printed page. More book = format.

[ Parent ]

No, I think we're on the same page (or track) by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #58 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 01:47:03 AM EST
You're asserting that there is a general assumption in the population that when you say "read a book" they expect you to be scanning words in a bound printed page.

But what is your basis for that assertion?

When you look at Shelfari, you see the reverse of that assumption. When people say they have read a book there, they don't differentiate reading a paper book from listening to an audiobook.

When people ask me about whether I've read a book, or if I'm reading a book, I talk about audiobooks in just the same way. If someone asks me if I've read "When We Were Orphans" by Kazuo Isiguro, I'd say yes. Firstly unless I think hard I probably won't remember that I did that as an audiobook, any more than I'd remember offhand if it was hardcover or paperback. Secondly it takes an unnecessary length of time to explain that it was an audiobook, and conveys no useful information.

Therefore, your assertion is false.

If you say "I drove up to Boston" people will probably expect that you drove up in a car, since cars are the most common things to drive in. However, that doesn't mean that there is a category difference to driving in a 3-wheeler, a horse and trap, a steam-roller or a large truck.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

We'll have to conduct a poll. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #59 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 08:31:09 AM EST
My next diary, we'll just ask folks what they first assume somebody means when they hear somebody say "read a book."

I think we'll find most people assume that the phrase read a book means sending time over the pages of a bound object with pages in it. You do not. Let's run the poll and see. If we do that, can we proclaim a winner and end this?

As for Shelfari - audio editions can and are selected by users. Though a general search shows that people are not consistent. Sometimes they indicate it and sometimes they don't.

For example, there's two audiobook-centric groups. They discuss favorite narrators, award-winning audiobooks, and, of course, the perinneal favorite, is it cheating to listen. On their group shelves, sometimes the audio edition is displayed, sometimes it is the hardcopy.

So it would seem we're both wrong on that count. People who don't indicate the audio vs. hard rule are not exceptional, but people can and do indicate the differences on occasion.


[ Parent ]

Depends on how it's framed of course by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #60 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 02:05:41 PM EST
If you ask people "what do you imagine when I say I drove", and they envisage a car, then that does not exclude that that you can also drive a chariot...
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

I sense we're not gonna get far . . . by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #61 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 03:19:39 PM EST
On this survey idea either.

If I agree not to mention cars or chariots, or points home, or prices up, or nails, or steel (you can hear John Henry's hammer ring, Lawd, Lawd), or agendas, or anything else that can be driven, can we ask the question?

Though the issue wasn't that you couldn't drive a chariot. You might have a lovely chariot. Perhaps you collect chariots. You may be the Big Daddy Roth of kustom khariots, for all I know.

The question was: Why, in some cases, when asked if you drive, do you answer "I travel mainly by chariot," but in other cases, when you know most folks will think it means you have a car, do you just answer "Yes"?

Though, as you've asserted, you don't even think that question makes sense. You've asserted that there's no reason to assume people think you've got a car (to push this analogy to the point of silliness and beyond - in this case, audiobooks are chariots). You've asserted that most people assume, on hearing drive, that you mean cars and chariots and dog sleds and dope beats and snow and film plots and local economies and anything else that can be driven. And, presumably, they hold this open, unresolved cloud of unknowing in their heads until they get more info or the need to know passes.

The question remains, what do people really assume. And the only way to know that would be to ask. Perhaps a disinterested third party should craft the question and post the poll.

Though, perhaps, a better question to ask is: don't we both have better things we could be doing?

[ Parent ]

Better things to do than argue? by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #62 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 04:24:52 PM EST
But I love arguing. I hardly ever give up on an argument unless I'm wrong, or I find we're repeating a previous argument, or I find we're arguing from incompatible presumptions. None of those seem to apply in this case.

The that definitions are useful is that most words and concepts refer to a range of particular items, that range having fuzzy boundaries. You cannot define a term just by giving an example of it, or a particular image that pops into someones head when they hear the word.

Whether an item fits into a category doesn't depend on what the most central item in the category is, but on what the extent of that category is.

Now amongst the definitions of book in the OED we have:

c. A literary composition such as would occupy one or more volumes, without regard to the material form or forms in which it actually exists; ‘an intellectual composition, in prose or verse, at least of sufficient extent to make one volume’ (Littré s.v. livre). In this sense Carlyle described himself as ‘a writer of books’.
I don't see why we need to turn to tiny-sample opinion polls, when the closest thing to an official dictionary of English states that a book is included in its definitions regardless of the material form it occupies.

My inclusion of audiobooks as books agrees with the Shelfari usage which agrees with the OED's definition. It's pretty clear.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

What are definitions a and b? by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #63 Wed Oct 17, 2007 at 05:29:08 PM EST
Why did we jump straight to c?

As you know, the definitions are in order of common use. Is it more common to define a book as, well, you know, a book?

What are you trying to pull here, Theo?

This is just the sort of selective use of available info I expect from somebody who knowingly - Knowingly, I Say! - presents audiobooks as if they were hardcopy versions.

Have you no dignity, Mr. Snaily? At long last, Mr. Snaily, have you no dignity?

(While we're at it, would you mind posting the entire OED definition of the word "read"? Not just a selection of senses or the etymology, please. I'm curious to see if the most commonly understood meaning of term implies the use of vision. You're links just go back to the registration page, so I'll have to take your word on it.)

I still think we're having two different conversations here.

I'm actually willing to agree that an audiobook is the same as the hardcopy in the same sort of "essential" way that we'd say you'd read Eco's book, even though the book was originally in Italian and you're reading just another version. If I grant a unity across translations (which I know not everybody does), then I can't well say that a performance reading - which seems considerably less transformative - is somehow not a version of the same work.

What I'm suggesting is that when you say "I read a book," most people assume (perhaps illogically) that you held what is commonly believed by the great unwashed to be a book - that is a thing with pages and a spine, or, in the case of some of my older books, the remnants thereof - and turned pages and visually scanned the printed word.

The usefulness of many words may be their categorical possibilities, but the functional demands of language are also well served by the fact that we can often rest on assumptions and common usage, preventing us from having to run through every possible denotation and connotation of meaning for every word we utter.

Otherwise, when I told you to get a grip on yourself, you might think I meant that you should bury yourself in luggage.

At least, that's how it works with the English language. It might work differently with whatever they're speaking in the UK these days.

[ Parent ]

Definitions by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #64 Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 02:20:16 PM EST
The a and b definitions do of course refer to printed volumes.

However, that's not really relevant to the discussion, since we're debating whether the definition of a book includes an audiobook, not whether the first item visualized by someone will be a printed or audiobook.

Consider for instance, the question of whether a lion is a cat. It's unlikely that someone visualizing the word cat will immediately think of a lion, but that does imply that the word cat does not apply to a lion.

Even so, if you look up cat, the definition including a lion is relegated to a separate number, not merely a different letter under the same number.

So, an audiobook falls even more closely under the word "book", than a lion does under the word "cat". The entry for the verb "read" is about 10,000 words long. I think definitions 1 and 5 are the most useful to us here, so I'll just extract those in another comment.

What I'm suggesting is that when you say "I read a book," most people assume (perhaps illogically) that you held what is commonly believed by the great unwashed to be a book - that is a thing with pages and a spine, or, in the case of some of my older books, the remnants thereof - and turned pages and visually scanned the printed word.
You're try to evade two issues here:

1. Even unwashed people use words to mean a range of things, not one particular example of a thing. People might commonly believe that, say, cats have tails. That doesn't mean that if you said had a cat, and later it turned out to be a Manx cat, they would accuse you of using the word incorrectly.

2. You keep asserting what "most people think", but you haven't cited any evidence that most people do think this way. The common usage on Shelfari contradicts you, which is why you mentioned the issue in the first place. If you're going to keep trying to cite common usage, you need to back that up with some evidence.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

See, there's where you're wrong. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #67 Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 04:54:41 PM EST
However, that's not really relevant to the discussion, since we're debating whether the definition of a book includes an audiobook, not whether the first item visualized by someone will be a printed or audiobook.

We both agree on that. It does.

Or as I said:
I'm actually willing to agree that an audiobook is the same as the hardcopy in the same sort of "essential" way that we'd say you'd read Eco's book, even though the book was originally in Italian and you're reading just another version. If I grant a unity across translations (which I know not everybody does), then I can't well say that a performance reading - which seems considerably less transformative - is somehow not a version of the same work.

That's not what I've been debating - or even what I was asking in the first place. My argument is that, on hearing somebody read a book, most people - due to what I suspect (but you do not) are commonly held assumptions of "read" and "book" - will think one visually read a hardcopy book. I further went on to question why people wouldn't specify the audio aspect in one context but would in another. Especially when both context's allow for easy clarification of the point.

(To use your parallel, if you asked somebody to watch your pet cat and it turned out to be a freakin' lion you were keeping in your flat, you'd be right as rain with the makers of the OED - though, to be fair, they'd tell you that senses aren't "relegated" to a number, the number reflects their chronological development ((excuse the Faulknerian parenthetical excess, but not usage, as I previously stated, I was thinking of MW, I think)) - but I feel your now ex-friend could be excused for thinking that you're insane. By the same token, if he found a Beat era jazz musician in your house, again, you'd be kosher at the house Herbie Coleridge built, but your friend - perhaps still your friend this time - might think you odd.)

And, finally, we are (praise James Murray!!) now officially stepping on one of your two rules for when an argument should be stopped - namely: when we recovering old ground.

You once before made the claim that Shelfari "contradicts" my "theory" (really more a question, which remains unanswered).

As previously posted, I looked to see if audio/hardcopy differentiation occurs on Shelfari and, indeed, it does.

Searching for audiobooks on Shelfari yields 100 pages of hits. You can, on user shelves, find specifically audio editions of titles. One can also find two different groups dedicated to audiobooks. Shelfari users do not, as you seem to suggest, automatically assume the audiobook and the hardcopy are one and the same.

However (isn't their always a however?), this doesn't prove my point.

Even the most cursory glance shows that people are inconsistent in their labeling. Even people who do sometimes indicate audio editions sometimes don't make the distinction.

"How, dear CRwM, do you know if somebody has listened to a book when they don't indicate the audio edition? How do you detect a mislabeled book?"

That's a good question, Nameless Imaginary Interlocutor. If you look through some of the discussion threads in the audiobook group, you find discussion about the narrators of books that are, on the users' shelves, indicated as hardcopy.

"Then they obviously don't see a difference between hardcopy and audio?"

Not so fast, NII, you little scamp. These same people did specifically indicate on their group and personal shelves that they listened to other titles in audio form.

"Golly, CRwM! That fits neither your position nor Mr. Snaily's. How do you explain that away?"

I'm not sure I can, NII. There might be a strictly technical answer: Some titles display hardcopy no matter what edition you select (Lord of the Flies for example) while others don't (Don Quixote for example). If that's the case, then people may be making the distinction, but the system may change the results because it is sporadically indifferent.

But, it might point to something weirder. For instance, I've noticed that people tend to indicate the audio versions of the classics while they don't seem to picky about recent books or genre titles. Is this some nod to the essential bookiness of the Great Books? It might, of course, be purely accidental. Do people really pay attention to what edition they select? Who knows.

In short, there's no way to tell what the folks on Shelfari think because people don't completely control whether they can or cannot indicate audio versions. Whatever they intend is, in the end, filtered through a system that seems fairly random about what you can and cannot indicate.

"Did we just do science, CRwM?"

No, young NII. That was mostly a dab of observation smothered in self-serving ideology and half-baked analysis. Like sociology or economics or psychology, it's mostly bullshit.

"But you used numbers."

Didn't I, NII? Didn't I?

But back to you, my molluscan class Gastropoda friend.

Appeals to "common usage" get us nowhere since observation of Shelfari usage - depending on your point of view - supports or contradicts both parties. And by "nowhere," I mean nowhere again, actually.

It was about this time that I suggested that, in order to find out the operational assumptions of people out in the world, we'd have to have a poll or something . . . then you ironically suggested appealing to the authority of a book . . . which got us nowhere because the two lead senses of the word "book" supported my assumption . . . but suddenly the dictionary definition wasn't good enough (which is weird because you were previously dragging up the pre-modern English roots of the word "read" as support earlier in your posts) . . .  which brings us again to the now(here) and saves us arguing all the way back here.

So, as man of honor, who keeps your word, and would never give some Internet stranger you've never met a reason to question your upbringing, you are required to end the debate.

[ Parent ]

Not at all by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #69 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 06:03:13 AM EST
As previously posted, I looked to see if audio/hardcopy differentiation occurs on Shelfari and, indeed, it does.

Searching for audiobooks on Shelfari yields 100 pages of hits. You can, on user shelves, find specifically audio editions of titles. One can also find two different groups dedicated to audiobooks. Shelfari users do not, as you seem to suggest, automatically assume the audiobook and the hardcopy are one and the same.

Equally, if you look through the groups you find groups for Fantasy books, Science Fiction books, Terry Pratchett books. If you search for Fantasy that also retrieves 100 pages of results.

The fact that people choose to discuss Fantasy books in particular, does not mean that these do not count as books.

Similarly, you will notice that within limits, if there are multiple covers on Shelfari, people can choose to select a particular cover to appear on their shelf. The fact that some people choose to select particular covers does not tell you that that counts as a different book.

In your original diary, you said: "audio books strike me as a fundamentally different beast". The fact that people choose to categorize their shelves and interests by genre, cover, audio/paper does not indicate that any of these indicates a "fundamentally different beast."

Now if we move along, I've thought a little bit more about your neurological evidence in the light of these definitions and the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis that language itself shapes thought.

Now we know that the etymology of read has nothing to do with scanning your eyes across a page, but refers to being counseled or prepared. We know that it is possible to damage the brain in such a way that the person cannot visually read words, but can still understand them. However, if you look at the reverse situation of Broca's aphasia, if you damage the systems that allow words to be listened to, you also damage the grammatical ability of the brain: its ability to process language itself.

Therefore it seems to me that while the differences between paper books and audiobooks are still subtle rather than categorical: audiobooks are a somewhat more primal and essential form of book than the paper version. An audiobook is closer to the ideal of pure language than a paper book.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

(Comment Deleted) by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #70 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 02:31:58 PM EST

This comment has been deleted by Christopher Robin was Murdered



[ Parent ]

Theo, my friend. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #71 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 03:12:17 PM EST
I'm glad you feel we're getting somewhere with this, but I do not.

The Shelfari thing has come up again (third time's the charm, I suppose) and your response leads me to believe that we are either talking about such radically different concepts that we talking past one another or that you're simply not reading my responses any more.

I'm going to assume the former because I don't think you're a jerk.

You can debate definitions all you like. And by that, I mean, debate yourself: I've granted you the point that audiobooks are not significantly different to constitute another version. (Though your latest - that the audiobook, a interpretation/performance of a written text, is more primal than the text that it interprets and performs - is a theory worthy of only the most inventive of deconstructive critics and akin to you saying that a performance of the play comes before the script.) A considerable amount of arguement continues to be about what I should consider my definition of "a book" and that ship has sailed. I think I'm with you (sans your new "primal" bit).

This still has nothing whatsoever to do with my question about whether or not people assume a certain definition of reading.

I stand by my theory that when you say "read a book" to somebody, they'll assume visual reading of a hardcopy. I'd even argue that Sapir-Whorf supports my claim insomuch as were talking about lived semantic connections and not linguistic history or philosophical abstractions.

So far, all you've argued (like a good free-market economist) is why you feel, theoretically, this won't/shouldn't be true. But, when it comes time to put up or shut up by going out into the world and getting the hard data, you dismiss any effort to get data and return to your theoretical onanism.

Are we ready to put up or shut up and go actually get some data?

I propose the following. We give people the following task: "In 100 words or less, describe how you - specifically you, the responder - read a book." If we get a diversity of answers that show no concentration on visually scanning a hardcopy, then I'm wrong. If most responders give some form of scanning pages as their answer, then I'm wrong.

I'll post it in my diary. We'll both admit that this is a small and unscientific sample, so we both agree not to publishas it is nothing definitive. Still, it will at least give us some real data and end this interminable and fruitless intellectual circle jerk we seem to have become mired in.

[ Parent ]

Question for you by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #72 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 03:35:48 PM EST
When you're unclear or in dispute about what a word means, what do you normally do? Is it:
A. Post an opinion poll on HuSi
B. Look it up in a dictionary

As I've explained numerous times, a "what's the first thing you think of" type poll has no validity here. People may envisage a cat with a tail first thing, but that doesn't mean a Manx cat is not a cat.

The reason you're resorting to opinion polls to redefine words is because the normal means of defining words contradicts your position.

Now, it's pretty easy for you to get a poll confirming your position by framing the poll right. It would be equally easy for me to get a poll confirming my position by asking a question like "are audiobooks books". I wouldn't bother to do that though, because all it tells us are that HuSi polls are easy to manipulate.

So far, all you've argued (like a good free-market economist) is why you feel, theoretically, this won't/shouldn't be true. But, when it comes time to put up or shut up by going out into the world and getting the hard data, you dismiss any effort to get data and return to your theoretical onanism.
On the contrary: I have retrieved data to support my case from, for instance:
1. The dictionary.
2. Observations of real-life usage on Shelfari.
3. References to Broca's aphasia

I'm not sure what theoretical onanism is, since I haven't looked it up lately. But trying to redefine a word based on a HuSi opinion poll because you don't like the dictionary's version sounds like it might fit...
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

Sorry about the tone. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #73 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 04:47:37 PM EST
I'm getting frustrated about my own inability to communicate to you the distinction I'm trying to make here.

Since you're one of the brightest folks I've had the pleasure of running into on this site, I'm forced to assume that I'm either wrong or I'm simply not communicating it effectively.

From my point of view, we seem to be covering the same ground again and again, rather fruitlessly. The only thing we have done is jack up the level of spitefulness. My own smart ass comment are responsible for that, so I apologize for being offensive.

I'll try one more time to make what I'm talking about clear and then I'm giving you the final word.

I don't see this as a debate about definitions. I'm talking about people's perceptions which may or may not jibe with the official definitions of something. I don't see it as unlike your proposal to gather up "folk economics" that differed from current economic theory (only in this case, I don't see this as a right-or-wrong thing).

I get all your points about the categorical functions of words, what I'm interested in is the assumptions people make. Both a lion and a house cat fall under the definition cat (that's agreed), but when do people start saying, "Dude, you really should have specified 'lion.'"

That's what I mean: Do people assume hardcopy? Do  they only assume hardcopy in certain cases? Do they never assume hardcopy?

These things a dictionary wouldn't tell us (or, at least, the OED wouldn't tell us - other dictionaries claim to organize there sense numbers by commonality of use). The Shelfari evidence, as far as I can tell, isn't very helpful to either side of the debate as people can't fully control what they display and, therefore, I don't think we can extract intentionality from their displays. And, finally, the mind function thing relates to the official definition debate which I grant you won.

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't sweat it by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #74 Mon Oct 22, 2007 at 02:02:08 PM EST
I'm a very argumentative person. Possibly more so in real life than on-line.

But basically I don't think the initial assumptions people make are useful, because the immediate thing you envisage will just be the most common example or stereotypical example. Paper books outnumber audiobooks, so they will be the immediate things people visualize if told to imagine "book".

The popularity of audiobooks is growing though. They first became popular in the cassette era as they became practical. As people move to digital music players I think they will become more and more popular: because you can store many books on a tiny device, and you only need a small earpiece or headphones, instead of a large screen.

So, I don't think it's impossible that audiobooks could overtake both e-books and paper books to become the dominant kind of book. In that case, it might be that when people think of "book" they will immediately think of an audiobook. But that wouldn't mean that a paper book is categorically different.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

OED on the verb 'Read', definitions 1 and 5 by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #65 Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 02:21:52 PM EST
* To consider, interpret, discern, etc.

    1.    a. To have an idea; to think or suppose that, etc. Obs. rare.
c900 tr. Bæda's Hist. III. x, a ongann he..encean & rædan, ætte nan oer intinga wære [etc.]. c1400 Destr. Troy 3308 Tho truly at are takon..Shalbe plesit with plenty..red ye non oer. 1600 BRETON Pasquils Foolescappe (1879) 22/1 Let him be sure that better wits doe reede Such Madhead fellowes are but Fooles indeede. 1768 ROSS Helenore III. 122 Goodwife, I reed your tale is true. Ibid. 125, I reed 'twas they that me a dreaming set.

    b. To guess, to make out or tell by conjecture what, who, why, etc. Obs.
a1000 Riddles lxii. 9 Ræd, hwæt ic mæne! c1000 ÆLFRIC Hom. II. 248 Iudei..heton hine rædan hwa hine hreopode. a1300 Cursor M. 597 ow mai ask..qui god him gaue sua mikel a nam; Parfay at es bot eth to rede. 1530 PALSGR. 681/2 Rede who tolde it me and I wyll tell the trouthe. 1564 Child-Marriages 124 This deponent askid the said Margaret, who that shuld be; and the said Margaret bade this deponent reade if he cold. 1590 SPENSER F.Q. II. xii. 70 Right hard it was for wight which did it heare To reade what manner musicke that mote bee.

    c. To take for something. Obs. rare.
1591 SPENSER Ruins of Time 633, I saw a stately Bed,..That might for anie Princes couche be red. [1813 SCOTT Rokeby III. xvii, I read you for a blod Dragoon, That lists the tuck of drum.]

    ** To peruse, without uttering in speech.

    5. a. To inspect and interpret in thought (any signs which represent words or discourse); to look over or scan (something written, printed, etc.) with understanding of what is meant by the letters or signs; to peruse (a document, book, author, etc.); to understand (musical notation); spec. = sight-read s.v. SIGHT n.1 17.
  Formerly used in imperative (as in quot. 1563) in referring the reader to another book or author for information.
c888 K. ÆLFRED Boeth. Proem., He halsa ælcne ara e as boc rædan lyste. c950 Lindisf. Gosp. John xix. 20 iosne..taccon menio redon [Rushw. reddon]. c1200 ORMIN Ded. 328 a Crisstene menn att herenn oerr redenn iss boc. a1300 Cursor M. 8495 is writte wit fele was red and sene, Bot fa it wist quat it wald mene. 1375 BARBOUR Bruce I. 17 Auld storys that men redys, Representis to thaim the dedys Of stalwart folk. 1413 Pilgr. Sowle (Caxton) I. xxii. (1859) 23 He hath redde and knowen bothe wordes and werkes of the rather seyntes. 1532 MORE Confut. Tindale Wks. 684/2, I can proue that he red some commentours and holy doctours, that write exposicions vpon it. 1563 SHUTE Archit. Bij, The Pyramides..and manye other beautifull buildinges of that nacion. Reade Diado. Sic. li. 1. 2. 1617 MORYSON Itin. II. 230 Because I am not sure whether you can perfectly reade her Maiesties hand, I send you the same in a coppy. 1646 Hamilton Papers (Camden) 126 One word of it which I reade without my cipher. 1709 POPE Ess. Crit. 233 A perfect Judge will read each work of Wit, With the same spirit that its author writ. 1774 MITFORD Ess. Harmony Lang. 16 What has been printed on both Sides is little red. 1792 H. NEWDIGATE Let. Mar. in A. E. Newdigate-Newdegate Cheverels (1898) ix. 133 Her Voice was not strong but..they are quite astonish'd with her knowledge of Music & facility in reading it. 1864 SIR H. TAYLOR Autobiog. (1885) I. 198 My father, who had read the work..in MS., rejoiced in it more and more when he came to read it in print. 1871 SMILES Charac. i. (1876) 23 He was always the most national of the Italian poets,..the most read. 1894 G. B. SHAW in Fortn. Rev. Feb. 258 To do half-a-dozen things much more difficult than reading music. 1918  in Nation 22 June 308/1 To wile away the time by reading at sight a bundle of band parts and vocal scores of a rather difficult opera. 1938 D. BAKER Young Man with Horn I. v. 56 Jeff's band didn't play from music, though they could all read music. 1974 Listener 24 Jan. 106/3, I could read the music and be able to make it work right away with five minutes' rehearsal.

    b. To peruse books, etc. written in (a certain language); esp. to have such knowledge of (a language) as to be able to understand works written in it. spec. to peruse books, newspapers, etc., for quotations suitable for inclusion as illustrative examples in a dictionary.
1530 PALSGR. 681/2, I rede latyn better nowe than I wene I shall do frenche hence of a yere. 1612 BRINSLEY Lud. Lit. iii. (1627) 22 Now they may goe thus forward..in reading English perfitly. 1692 LOCKE Education §163 When he can speak and read French well..he should proceed to Latin. 1779 JOHNSON L.P., Milton (1868) 62 He read all the languages which are considered either as learned or polite. a1862 HOGG in Dowden Shelley I. 73 He [Shelley] had in truth read more Greek than many an aged pedant. 1873 HAMERTON Intell. Life III. vii. 109 By far the shortest way to learn to read a language is to begin by speaking it. 1876 J. A. H. MURRAY Let. 29 Nov. in K. M. E. Murray Caught in Web of Words (1977) vii. 146, I dont for words of that kind believe in the quotation test at all..because you know that not one millionth of current literature is read, & that it is the veriest chance or succession of chances which has caught carriageless..& missed a thousand others as good. 1961 R. W. BURCHFIELD in Essays & Studies XIV. 39 A large number of literary sources..are being systematically read against an Oxford dictionary. 1977 K. M. E. MURRAY Caught in Web of Words xii. 235 Lowell's book of literary essays, My Study Windows, was one of those read for the Dictionary.

    c. transf. and fig. in various applications.
1581 J. HAMILTON in Cath. Tract. (S.T.S.) 87 Thou hes red (sayis he) the varkis of the varld. 1601 SHAKES. Twel. N. V. i. 302 Ol. How now, art thou mad? Clo. No Madam, I do but reade madnesse. 1611  Wint. T. IV. iv. 172 Hee'l stand and reade, As 'twere, my daughters eyes. 1665 GLANVILL Scepsis Sci. xxv. 154 [They] are the Alphabet of Science, and Nature cannot be read without them. 1741-2 GRAY Agrip. 65 The dreadful powers That read futurity. 1782 COWPER Charity 333 He reads the skies. 1818 SHELLEY Rev. Islam IV. viii, All the ways of men among mankind he read. 1851 MAYNE REID Scalp Hunt. xxvi. 191 Indians can ‘read’ the smoke at a great distance. 1867 CRAIG Palmistry 42 One of the greatest of all difficulties in reading the hand. 1890 W. A. WALLACE Only a Sister? 88 What's a man worth that cannot read his own watch? 1921 P. L. HAWORTH Trailmakers of Northwest 206 As Brennan had lost one eye and could not see any too well out of the other, he was glad to have one of us ride in his canoe and read water for him. 1932 L. GOLDING Magnolia St. II. ii. 300 In the little town in..Lancashire where she was born quite as many people read tea-leaves as read their ABC. 1951 E. RICKMAN Come racing with Me iii. 19 We are talking about ‘reading’ a race, which is the practice on the spectator's part of a comprehensive and discriminating view of a field of horses from start to finish, so that the performance of all or most of the runners, and their relative positions at various stages, are intelligently observed and memorised. 1965 PRIESTLEY & WISDOM Good Driving xi. 81 You get into the habit of registering mentally all the signs..which enable you to ‘read’ the road in front of you. 1967 Boston Sunday Herald 26 Mar. IV. 3/8 An optical scanner..may eliminate the sorting machines by ‘reading’ the zip code on the letter and dispatching it accordingly. 1967 KARCH & BUBER Offset Processes ii. 20 An optical system ‘reads’ the photograph, and a heated stylus is directed to penetrate the plate to be printed, producing halftone dots. 1969 R. WELSH Beginner's Guide Curling xvii. 120 The ability to read strange ice..and knowing exactly when to sweep are other qualities of a good skip. 1970 G. F. NEWMAN Sir, You Bastard vi. 159 Ambition drowning the man was how she would read his promotion. 1971 Sunday Express (Johannesburg) 28 Mar. 17/1 You read a putt, stroke it properly along the line you have chosen, and then the ball breaks off in the opposite direction. 1972 Daily Tel. 5 May 3/3 A meter reader rang the bell and told my wife he wanted to read the meter in the garage. 1974 Times 19 Feb. 15/3 Most people are not used to ‘reading’ plans..and have only slightly less difficulty with architectural photographs. 1977 Time 14 Nov. 48/1 They broke down and then analyzed the RNA in the archaebacteria's ribosomes, the structures that ‘read’ the message of the master molecule DNA and produce the protein necessary for life. 1978 Monitor (McAllen, Texas) 12 Feb. 1-B/1 This generation of Gypsies..will wake up to modern life and give up many of the old customs... My job was supposed to be reading palms. 1979 SLR Camera Jan. 36/3 Like the now discontinued EF the AE-1 uses a silicon photocell to read the light.

    d. transf. To make out the character or nature of (a person, the heart, etc.) by scrutiny or interpretation of outward signs.
1611 SHAKES. Wint. T. III. iii. 73 Though I am not bookish yet I can reade Waiting-gentlewoman in the scape. 1647 N. BACON Disc. Govt. Eng. I. Pref. (1739) 7 Historians..for the most part read Men. 1727 SWIFT Letter on Eng. Tongue, This they call knowing the world, and reading men and manners. 1838 LYTTON Alice I. x, I wish you could read my heart at this moment. 1902 EDNA LYALL Hinderers ix, We ordinary mortals are at the mercy of you artists... You read us like books.

    e. To interpret (a design) in terms of the setting up needed to reproduce it on a loom. Also with in.
1839 URE Dict. Arts 267 In both modes of manufacture, the piece is mounted by reading-in the warp for the different leaves of the heddles. 1895 T. F. BELL Jacquard Weaving & Designing i. 9 The straight-edge EE..will slide up and down in the frame, to mark the line on the design paper that is next to be read by the lasher. 1897 [see reading-machine s.v. READING vbl. n. 10b]. 1924 T. WOODHOUSE Jacquards & Harness iv. 107 Before describing the remaining parts of the machine, it will..be best to indicate how the design is read. 1958 A. HINDSON Designer's Drawloom xi. 105 The weaver can tie up the pattern single-handed, but it can be done more easily and quickly if there is a helper to read the pattern draft.

    f. To study (a subject, a ‘school’) at a university; to read for (a degree). Cf. sense 15c.
1884 [see Greats s.v. GREAT C. 10]. 1955 Times 23 May 6/1 Agriculture is no longer a subject to be ashamed of; it produces no inferiority complex in those who read it. 1966 Rep. Comm. Inquiry Univ. Oxf. II. 49 Graduates reading first degrees. Ibid. 85 Women undergraduates reading arts. 1970 [see ENGLISH n. 3d]. 1977 Professional Careers Bull. Autumn 1/1 Partially it has been due to an ever increasing demand from sixth formers to read law.

    g. Phr. to read one's shirt (see quot. 1925). slang.
1918 Nat. Geogr. Mag. June 499 They..speak of ‘reading their shirts’. 1925 FRASER & GIBBONS Soldier & Sailor Words 237 To read a shirt, to search it for lice. 1931 ‘D. STIFF’ Milk & Honey Route xiii. 144 It is said, for instance, that the hobo spends a great deal of his time reading his shirt, seeking certain animals known as ‘seam squirrels’.

    h. Computers. To copy or extract data on or in (any storage medium or device); to copy, extract, or transfer (data). Also const. into, out of.
1940 W. J. ECKERT Punched Card Methods Scientific Computation 4 The number are..read into the machines by..electrical contacts made through the holes. 1945 Jrnl. Franklin Inst. CCXL. 277 When the punched tapes are ready, the problem is placed on the machine by automatic controls which ‘read’ the first tape and make the specified assembly. 1948 Math. Tables & Other Aids to Computation III. 123 The speeds at which words can be read (or written) by the machine will be much less than the speeds at which the machine can transfer words internally. Ibid. 124 When additional instructions are received they can be read into the machine from an instruction tape. 1950 High-Speed Computing Devices ix. 151 The tape reader automatically reads punched tape..and transcribes the data represented by the holes in the tape to a deck of cards. Other equipment can perform the reverse operation, reading the holes punched in the cards and producing a tape. 1959 E. M. MCCORMICK Digital Computer Primer ix. 135 The tape is then connected into the computer system and the information read from it to the computer. 1964 F. L. WESTWATER Electronic Computers i. 2 The card or tape is then ‘read’. This may be done by allowing the holes to pass under tiny wire brushes. Ibid. iv. 59 To read a word out of the store we have to open a gate at the end, and this permits pulses to escape. 1964 Ann. N.Y. Acad. Sci. CXV. 654 The length of time required to read information from or store information into one of the 1,024..12-bit memory locations. 1970 O. DOPPING Computers & Data Processing xiv. 226 The computer time for file maintenance..is often mainly determined by the time for reading and writing magnetic tape. 1972 Computer Jrnl. XV. 201/1 The commonest way of reading a file into the system. 1972 Guardian 14 Aug. 10/3 Computers can already ‘read’ a high speed disc-store at around 500,000 characters a second. 1978 J. K. ATKIN Basic Computer Sci. vii. 92 To read a bit from the memory it is necessary to interrogate a particular core by sending current pulses..along the appropriate x- and y-wires.

    i. To receive and understand the words of (a person) by radio or telephone, to hear; to detect (an object) by sonar; transf., to understand the words or intentions of (a person).
1956 Amer. Speech XXXI. 228 [U.S.A.F. slang] Do you read me? As in conversation by radio, this means ‘Do you understand me?’ The answer might be, ‘Yes, five by five’, meaning loud and clear. 1956 ‘E. MCBAIN’ Cop Hater (1958) ix. 85 ‘Are you stoned now, or can you read me?’ ‘I hear you,’ Ordiz said. 1960 Master Detective July 83/1 Static-laced code crackle sounded from the speaker. ‘Poelzell. I read you. Keep the Dodge in sight.’ 1963 Times 25 May 10/7 ‘Does anyone read poor Philip?’ A comforting voice from a glider, still airborne: ‘Humphrey to Philip. Loud and clear.’ 1967 R. J. SERLING President's Plane is Missing (1968) ix. 164 ‘Don't be so oversolicitous, Rod. It's as bad for a marriage as being too inconsiderate. Do you read me?’ ‘I read you, Nancy.’ 1968 R. SEVERN Game for Hawks x. 120 ‘How d'you read her, Cass?’ he asked, sourly. ‘Could she be taking you for a ride?’ 1970 B. KNOX Children of Mist v. 103 ‘If you can hear..this is an emergency call.’.. Thane pressed the microphone button. ‘Fenn, we read you.’ 1972 J. PORTER Meddler & her Murder x. 131 The girl friend listening?.. Oh, I read you. Well, I'll make it short and sweet. 1974 L. DEIGHTON Spy Story xviii. 193 A couple of conventional subs steaming a parallel course... We read them on the sonar and ranged them. 1977 D. BENNETT Jigsaw Man xi. 203 As from the end of this call, this number will be discontinued. I am reading you back for the fast time.
--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

All of def #1 is listed as obsolete & rare. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #66 Thu Oct 18, 2007 at 03:35:28 PM EST
Though both of our senses of the word made it into the first definition of 5.

That was dramatic, but didn't get us far.

[ Parent ]

I think it got us further by TheophileEscargot (2.00 / 0) #68 Sun Oct 21, 2007 at 06:02:02 AM EST
My case is that the definitions are wide enough to encompass
both books and audiobooks. That definition supports that claim.

--
"Everything is vague to a degree you do not realize till you have tried to make it precise." -- Bertrand Russell
[ Parent ]

Q by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #37 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:22:12 PM EST
If you're blind, do only Braille books count?

If you're really young or really old and have people read to you, do they count?

If you own a book that's an assembly of other books (like, say, this one),but you've only one or two, can you count the one or two since they're usually published solo?
--
Heat, pressure, and time: the three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.
[ Parent ]

Interesting questions. by Christopher Robin was Murdered (2.00 / 0) #40 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 04:42:02 PM EST
It isn't so much a "count" thing as a "when you tell people you've read a book, do they have expectations of what that means that should be taken in account when you say, yeah, I've read that" thing.

I was wondering about Braille. Could you have, for example, a Braille edition of House of Leaves? Though, thinking on it, could you even have a Japanese version of House of Leaves that didn't significantly alter the book? I don't feel qualified to discuss it, but I suspect that visual reading and tactile reading are significantly different experiences - though how these differ would be almost impossible to experience since, I would hazard a guess, that you are blind, or not, or, in cases where someone became blind, you "translate" in your head.

(And what do Braille translators do with visually-oriented text? Do they they translate it so it is meaningful in a sightless context? Or do they just leave it as is?)

(Even more off point, if you ever read the first edition of Helen Keller's autobiography, there's a lot of odd writing that has to do with the fact that she doesn't visually experience space the way her readers presumably did. I'm assuming that this is the sort of physiological gap - the inability to really imagine an embodied experience that isn't your own - that prevents us from answering the Braille question.)

I think we've had a throw down about whether or not reading a translation counts as having "read" the book. Though, to get to the original issue, I think it would be considered incorrect to tell people you'd read the original because you've read a translation. Which, I feel, gets to the point of some of the other questions. The question isn't what counts or not, but why would you represent yourself as having read the hardcopy edition when you had actually heard a audio-version (in cases where making such a distinction could be made).

I would say that the old person had the book read to them, they didn't read it. If your child's teacher reads a story to them in class, would you be wrong to then tell people that your kid could read?

Finally, would you tell people you've read the whole book? Or say something like "I've read the first three stories in it"?

[ Parent ]

Hrrmmm by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #45 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:17:28 PM EST
I coming around to thinking you should specify the edition you've read if the editions are wildly different. Eg. I have never (and probably never will) read the entire Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but I have read the Penguin abridgment. But by all accounts, the abridgment is the better version because while Gibbon is great stuff w/r/t the Romans (east and west), he's pretty far afield when it comes to Arabs and Mohammed. That and it's six volumes.

House of Leaves is an interesting question. I guess ... hmm ... I don't know. If something just can't be translated at all, I guess it just can't be and you can't read it. Full stop. I mean, reading a review or description of something isn't the same.

I've read Baudolino in English. Count of Monte Cristo, too. And Verne. And the Bible (with Jesus' words in red).

In re: the last, no I'd say I'd read The Thin Man out of the LoA book (as I have). But I would put it on my shelf!
--
Heat, pressure, and time: the three things that make a diamond also make a waffle.
[ Parent ]

Redux by ad hoc (2.00 / 0) #47 Mon Oct 15, 2007 at 05:35:56 PM EST
in thinking a bit more, it seems you'd almost have to specify which version in some cases. I mean, for 1000 Tales of the Arabian Nights, for example, the translations by Richard Burton and